Accents

[PeterSF]

I have a British friend from London who visits here on business, and I get embarrassed sometimes when he speaks quickly and I have to go "huh?". I am sure I must sound equally puzzling to him if I speak rapidly. Also, I doubt I'd ever try to guess between Australian and British accents. I don't hear enough of them to judge accurately and would hate to offend someone.

If you want a fairly enjoyable -- depending on your taste of course -- lesson in English as spoken by a large portion of Londoners, you could try watching the TV show "Lie To Me", starring Tim Roth as an expert in body language and facial expressions. He puts on quite an unrestrained working class London accent.
Not quite Cockney (at least he doesn't use rhyming slang, thank god) and I doubt an American could tell the difference anyway.

Depending on your friend's upbringing, he could have a milder, more middle class version of that (I won't go into all the detailed stuff about glottal stops, etc.), or maybe a completely different "London" accent, more associated with the privileged classes. "Received pronunciation" (not sure why it's called that), but think of John Cleese, BBC announcers of the 60's, members of the aristocracy (although theirs is an even more extreme version if you've ever heard the queen), and Hugh Laurie when he isn't playing "House" (no pun intended).

Anyway, my American friend liked the show, and I was able to provide her with instant translation services for Roth's elisions, shortened vowels and generally incomprehensible (to Americans) speech. So it could be good practice for you.
Of course the plot is the same each week - a crime is committed, Roth's character is brought in to interview the suspects, he spots their lies and the bad guy is caught. Usually there is a side-plot as well, but that goes the same way.

[davec]

Speaking of busting racial stereotypes---

Opera star Katherine Jenkins is Welsh, and definitely not my black-haired stereotype:

http://jmenternational.com/work/photo/2 ... enkins.jpg

I do want to make it clear, however, that this is not---I repeat not---in any wise a complaint!!

[PeterSF]

Speaking of busting racial stereotypes---

Opera star Katherine Jenkins is Welsh, and definitely not my black-haired stereotype:

And being an opera singer she obviously has a nice set of lungs...

[SepticTone]

I've been to Wales many times, & believe me, none of the girls look like that.

Most of them look like this:

http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj83/kjk76_98/hilarycabinet.jpg?t=1200940076


But of course, first thing you do when you realise you're Welsh & in Wales is to try to get the feck out of there ASAP, while your lungs still work. Same as Scotland, only more so.

[Ishamel]

My boyfriend is really rather RP - the posh version of a London accent; not 'hyah hyah' but getting there. The sort of person who thinks he talks 'properly.'
Anyway, he's in San Francisco trying to order some food and says,
'Oh and can we have some tapwater for the table please.'
'Huh?'
'Some tap water?'
'Sorry sir?'
'Tap water? Water?'
'I'm sorry sir, I don't understand you.'
*pause whilst part of him dies inside* '---some---er----waedder?'
'Oh, waedder! I'll be right back.'

Sigh...
Most of the misunderstandings I have with Americans are based on them not getting my Wallace and Gromit references

[PeterSF]

Anyway, he's in San Francisco trying to order some food and says,
'Oh and can we have some tapwater for the table please.'

Strange, I live there (SF) and have not had that problem yet.
Mind you, I ask for 'water' rather than 'tap water'. That's probably what threw them.
Oh, and of course you have to specify "no ice", otherwise you will be presented with a severely chilled glass of water with at least five ice cubes that I am still not used to. It gets even worse with soft drinks (and the establishment saves money on the beverage also).

As I stated earlier in this thread, I did have a problem ordering butter once. But that was in New Jersey. Septics might note the tiniest amount of sarcasm here... (sorry, Garden State dwellers, I know it's not all Fishwives, I mean Housewives, Of The Jersey Shore or whatever it's called)

[davec]

That word 'water' gets pronounced so many different ways, even in America... but as PeterSF indicates, adding 'tap' in front probably didn't help. And yes, restaurants do ice down soft drinks to save on the cost of the drink, sometimes a glass full of ice from top to bottom.

If it's any comfort, Ishamel, I'd get your Wallace and Gromit references. How 'bout a nice bit of Wensleydale sometime?

[davec]

Ok, here's how to sample a variety of UK accents outside the UK. Go to BBC iPlayer and pick 'Radio':

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iPlayer

While they won't broadcast TV, they do gladly put out the radio. Choose a station (Humberside, Leeds, Lancashire, Nottingham, London, etc) and go. You have the option to listen to the live feed or replay previously broadcast programs from the previous seven days. I recommend the replay option as it gives you a slide bar that lets you sample the program at any point, thus bypassing the music bits that many BBC radio programs have regardless of their erstwhile theme-based content.

The Humberside site gives brief biographies of the presenters, which is invaluable, as you otherwise don't know where they are from. BBC Humberside presenters Paul Hoggarth (that's 'Oggarth') and Paul Rudd are native Hullensians. Most of the others sound very much like them and so are probably also mudrats, but these two are reliable standards. None of the other sites have the bios. I'm thinking of posting a request to them.

Of course, this is how the accents sound as spoken by professional radio presenters, so it's cleaned up compared to what folk on the street speak. But if you cruise the content, there are phone-in segments, and you can hear the variety of accents from the surrounding area.

I'm starting to get a good ear for East Riding of Yorkshire, Leeds, Manchester, Lancashire, and Nottingham.

A Septic's take on some accents:

The Hull accent ('Ull) sounds like the speaker is extremely intent on being correctly understood, and fears that one slightly mispronounced syllable will just crash the conversation. Note: The general East Riding accent is being dumped and replaced by 'Ull as the years go by. Quite easy to understand.

Nottingham folk ('Notts') sound like they're murmuring out loud. But I like it. Sounds so placid and civilised. And very easy to understand.

Manchester is a little harder to understand (although I understand the actors in 'Shameless' just fine--see thread in British TV and Film), and is harder to get used to. General handling of vowels is very different and seems mixed up compared to American English, and that is what stands out.

I'm not even sure what to say about the general Lancashire take on accent, realizing that there's considerable variation within the area. It's high and clear like 'Ull, but vowels seem somewhat suppressed and indistinct. That impression may change as my ear acclimates to it. Not hard to understand if spoken clearly.

[SepticTone]

You do seem to have a fascination for Hull, don't you, dave?

You're probably on your own there, as most British people wouldn't even be able to pinpoint it on a map with any accuracy, myself included.

Nottingham doesn't have a perceptible accent, as it's too near to London to have preserved its integrity. I certainly wouldn't be able to pinpoint it, as Notts is one of those 'lost counties', like Leics, where nothing of any significance ever occurred, they have low population densities & everything else occurred further west, North or South. Oh no! I've just remembered something about Hull. The Housemartins & The Beautiful South came from there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ehden6aPl0

Silly British music which I guess never got an audience in the US, but they were huge here.

Or try their version of the wonderful Isley Brothers classic 'Caravan of Love', done semi-acapella & turned into what became a UK socialist anthem which finally brought the Thatcher/Major conservative governments crashing to their knees & kept them out of power for 13 years:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6GXV0FNEeI

The Beautiful South, with the lyrics considerably censored from the original CD version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FH8ll5yHxWs

Uncensored live version here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCPk5qIsif0

Try getting a Bolton accent. Now that's a challenge!

A fascinating insight into our accents from an unbiased ear, though, & good work cracking the BBC radio thing.

Now. I've paid £ 145 this year to the BBC for that stuff, even though I never listen to it, so I reckon you owe me about £ 0.35. Pay up!

I bet it makes a difference never having to listen to advertising jingles, too. Watching a 2 hour BBC documentary, drama, political anaysis, series or whatever in Hi-Def. surround sound , completely devoid of advertising breaks, like being at the theatre or a filmhouse is what makes the BBC one of our most cherished treasures, & I hate watching commercial channels with constant commercial breaks interrupting the immersion or suspension of disbelief, etc. That makes the mandatory subscription worth it. Well, almost worth it, as everybody hates taxes.

[davec]

Thanks for the music links. Loved 'em!

Yeah, I did a lot of research on the Hull area cuz old George C. came from there, and as I broadened my reading to more of England, I found it was good to have a home reference point. Hull fits the bill nicely, as it is a very Northern
English town with actually a lot happening. It's big enough to have a variety of cultural and industrial influences in the area, but not too big. And it has an interesting history.

Still haven't figured out much about the family without paying genealogical societies a ton of money. I've searched the hell out of Hull online and come up with nothing. It's a rare name. But I do know they were quite loaded. In fact, my granddad was mentioned in a will back in the 20s and got a few grand. Then, some years later, he turned up mentioned in another will. Not wishing to take time off from work, he sent a friend, Charlie, over to Hull. Charlie came back with a tale of woe about back taxes and so on, and no money. After which, he decided he was tired of Midwestern winters and moved to dumpy little Miami Florida. Years later, as it developed, Miami became quite the spot to visit--some people had been developing night clubs there. Charlie among them. Thanks, Charlie. And you know that the solicitors who cooked up this little deal walked off with a lot more than Charlie did.

'C' is for 'Corner'. I'm pretty sure they were not Anglo Saxon Corners, but descendents of the Venetian Cornaro merchant family, who relocated to Yugoslavia in the 1480s, changing the name to 'Cornar', and then to England in the early 1600s to find ways of making money easier than fighting Turks all the time. And changing the name again to 'Corner'. Hence the money. The Cornaros were extremely well minted, as you can see by searching on 'cornaro' in Wikipedia. I learned this Venice/England connection from an English Corner I chanced to meet once at a trade show. (He bore the family resemblance, too!) They were moneylenders going back at least to the 1200s, and very likely back to preChristian Rome, and were, amazingly, Catholics for centuries. Had a contentious relationship with the church as you might imagine, but then northern Italians always were quite anti-authoritarian.

I have no idea if any of them are still around, or if they're still rich or have been taxed into middle-classhood. I don't think I want to approach them on the matter either. And I'll probably never know if they were good, upstanding, hardworking business folk, or idly wealthy, or exploiting bastards. They didn't have to climb on the backs of the good folk of Northern England to get rich, after all. They arrived quite well set up. But if they followed a centuries-old family tradition, that would, I guess, lean toward the latter view, wouldn't it?